2008-09-15 01:17 <bh> hey
2008-09-15 01:22 <flips> hi
2008-09-15 01:22 <flips> new lkml post just when out
2008-09-15 01:23 <flips> "Tux3 Report: What next?"
2008-09-15 01:28 <flips> http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/9/15/23
2008-09-15 01:52 -!- konrad(~konrad@c-24-16-74-109.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 02:10 <bh> just read the post
2008-09-15 02:10 <bh> good advertizement :)
2008-09-15 02:11 <flips> that's the idea
2008-09-15 02:12 <bh> ok night :)
2008-09-15 02:45 <flips> http://www.letterp.com/~dbg/practical-file-system-design.pdf <- a book on filesystem design
2008-09-15 02:45 <flips> I should read it
2008-09-15 02:45 <flips> learn something
2008-09-15 03:06 -!- hirofumi(~hirofumi@210.171.168.39) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 03:56 <data> flips: git has another level between the repository and your checkout. that's why you need to do the commit -a
2008-09-15 03:56 <data> you can just alias it though
2008-09-15 04:47 -!- data(~data@echo489.server4you.de) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 07:02 -!- eli(~elicriffi@66.249.86.209) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 07:48 -!- Kirantpatil(~kiran@122.167.194.220) has joined #tux3
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2008-09-15 08:08 <amey> 100
2008-09-15 08:08 <amey> 100!
2008-09-15 08:09 -!- amey(~amey@116.73.35.180) has left #tux3
2008-09-15 09:21 -!- RazvanM(~RazvanM@dazzler.isi.jhu.edu) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 09:46 -!- Kirantpatil(~kiran@122.167.211.98) has joined #tux3
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2008-09-15 11:48 <flips> data, the thing is, it is not clear that git needs that extra level
2008-09-15 11:49 <flips> in fact, hg makes it clear that it doesn't
2008-09-15 12:23 -!- MaZe(~MaZe@216-239-45-4.google.com) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 12:23 <bh> folks
2008-09-15 12:37 -!- pgquiles_(~pgquiles@62.43.226.52.static.user.ono.com) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 12:40 <flips> hi bh
2008-09-15 12:40 <flips> hey maze
2008-09-15 12:40 <flips> see, today there is a tux3 filesystem in kernel
2008-09-15 12:40 <flips> that's the good news, the bad news is it's really just ramfs
2008-09-15 12:54 <bh> url to the post ?
2008-09-15 12:55 <flips> http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/9/15/23
2008-09-15 12:55 <shapor> flips: tux3.org seems... slooow
2008-09-15 12:56 <flips> shapor, true
2008-09-15 12:56 <flips> don't know why
2008-09-15 12:56 <shapor> getting lots of traffic?
2008-09-15 12:56 <flips> let's see what traffic I've got
2008-09-15 12:56 <flips> probably not
2008-09-15 12:56 <flips> haven't been monitoring
2008-09-15 12:56 <flips> could just be crappy linux vm stepping on itself
2008-09-15 12:56 <flips> means: close firefox
2008-09-15 12:57 <shapor> perhaps git tree getting crawled
2008-09-15 12:57 <flips> googlebot is hammering me
2008-09-15 12:57 <flips> really hammering
2008-09-15 12:58 <flips> fsck
2008-09-15 12:58 <flips> DoS
2008-09-15 12:58 <flips> oh god
2008-09-15 12:58 <flips> it's indexing my git tree
2008-09-15 12:58 <flips> stupid, stupid bot
2008-09-15 12:58 <flips> /kickban googlebot
2008-09-15 12:58 <shapor> thats easy
2008-09-15 12:58 <shapor> robots.txt
2008-09-15 12:59 <flips> suggestions?
2008-09-15 12:59 <flips> where do I put it?
2008-09-15 12:59 <shapor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robots.txt
2008-09-15 12:59 <shapor> put it in /
2008-09-15 12:59 <shapor> User-agent: *
2008-09-15 12:59 <shapor> Crawl-delay: 10
2008-09-15 12:59 <flips> damn I thought I could use the shapedia
2008-09-15 13:00 <shapor> that will make it wait 10 seconds between requests to your box
2008-09-15 13:00 <flips> oh good I can
2008-09-15 13:00 <flips> I only want it to stay out of the git tree
2008-09-15 13:00 <flips> anything else it's welcome to index
2008-09-15 13:00 <shapor> you can put in a disallow line then
2008-09-15 13:00 <shapor> why not let it crawl the git tree with a 10 sec delay ?
2008-09-15 13:00 <shapor> you can disallow like
2008-09-15 13:01 <shapor> Disallow: /ddtree/
2008-09-15 13:01 <flips> just think how many millions of dollars worth of storage git + lxr consume in goog datacenters
2008-09-15 13:01 <shapor> so
2008-09-15 13:01 <shapor> User-agent: *
2008-09-15 13:01 <shapor> Disallow: /ddtree/
2008-09-15 13:01 <flips> add some intelligence to googlebot, then donate 1/2 the savings to oss projects
2008-09-15 13:01 <shapor> hrm although
2008-09-15 13:02 <shapor> maybe you dont want the trailing slash
2008-09-15 13:02 <shapor> in fact i dont think you do
2008-09-15 13:02 <flips> 
ACTION puts that in the suggestion box

2008-09-15 13:09 <MaZe> you should just disallow areas not meant to be indexed ;-)
2008-09-15 13:10 <MaZe> crawl-delay has a tendency to me of little actual use
2008-09-15 13:10 <MaZe> s/me/be/
2008-09-15 13:10 <shapor> MaZe: it should at least spread out the pain ;)
2008-09-15 13:15 <MaZe> mayhaps
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> daniel@moonbase:/src/2.6.26.5.tux3$ git add robots.txt
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> daniel@moonbase:/src/2.6.26.5.tux3$ git add fs/robots.txt
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> daniel@moonbase:/src/2.6.26.5.tux3$ git diff
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> daniel@moonbase:/src/2.6.26.5.tux3$ git diff -a
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> no output
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> fscking git
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> I know there is a way, but how about it should just work
2008-09-15 15:19 <flips> good example of why we should mainly work with mercurial
2008-09-15 15:23 <RzM|Away> git diff HEAD
2008-09-15 15:24 <flips> true
2008-09-15 15:24 <flips> or git diff WANK
2008-09-15 15:24 <flips> ;-)
2008-09-15 15:24 <flips> thanks
2008-09-15 15:24 <RzM|Away> I like git ;-)
2008-09-15 15:24 <flips> I do too
2008-09-15 15:24 <flips> but not nearly as much as mercurial
2008-09-15 15:25 <RzM|Away> I'm using git for tinyos... what would be the reasons to switch to mercurial? :D
2008-09-15 15:29 <flips> RazvanM, mercurial makes it much easier for new contributers to get up to speed
2008-09-15 15:29 <flips> and doesn't get in the way of git experts
2008-09-15 15:30 <flips> basically, you just don't type the options that always seemed a little odd
2008-09-15 15:30 <flips> my ramp up for mercurial after git was about, um, 10 minutes
2008-09-15 15:30 <flips> same for Shapor I think
2008-09-15 15:30 <flips> Git took "some getting used to"
2008-09-15 15:30 <flips> hit more bugs in git than mercurial too
2008-09-15 15:30 <flips> and some things that should be bugs
2008-09-15 15:31 <flips> but are instead treated as features
2008-09-15 15:32 <RazvanM> :D
2008-09-15 15:32 <RazvanM> I definitely agree that it took me some time to get used to git
2008-09-15 15:33 <RazvanM> for the dealing with changes for tinyos was very good for me though
2008-09-15 15:33 <flips> anyway as you can see I'm being even handed and using both
2008-09-15 15:33 <flips> puts me in a better position to complain about git ;)
2008-09-15 15:33 <RazvanM> that is true ;-)
2008-09-15 15:33 <flips> tried mercurial?
2008-09-15 15:33 <flips> well you must
2008-09-15 15:33 <flips> if you have tux3 checked out
2008-09-15 15:34 <RazvanM> for tux3 I had a chance to play with it
2008-09-15 15:34 <flips> it's just amazing how it seems to do the right thing by default
2008-09-15 15:34 <flips> the only whine I've had about it is, there isn't a simple command to delete a head
2008-09-15 15:34 <flips> there are a couple of longish commands available
2008-09-15 15:35 <RazvanM> I did some changes to make it run on mac but then the new updates failed so I removed the files :P
2008-09-15 15:35 <flips> sorry
2008-09-15 15:35 <flips> I'll try to make fewer changes ;)
2008-09-15 15:35 <RazvanM> hehe
2008-09-15 15:35 <RazvanM> not your fault
2008-09-15 15:35 <flips> see if you can come up with some guidlines to make that smoother
2008-09-15 15:35 <flips> stuff I can do to make life easier for you
2008-09-15 15:37 <RazvanM> I hope I'll find some time to try to make it work on mac
2008-09-15 15:37 <flips> these days you could probably make it work on a cell phone
2008-09-15 15:37 <flips> certainly a Nokia 800 series
2008-09-15 15:37 <RazvanM> one thing that I did was to change mode_t to tux3_mode_t to avoid the collisions with the system's one
2008-09-15 15:37 <RazvanM> :D :D :D
2008-09-15 15:38 <flips> want to send a patch or should I just do that?
2008-09-15 15:38 <flips> I'll do that
2008-09-15 15:38 <flips> what does it collide with?
2008-09-15 15:38 <flips> some libc thing?
2008-09-15 15:38 <RazvanM> I think so
2008-09-15 15:38 <flips> could you find out?
2008-09-15 15:38 <RazvanM> I need to reboot to see if my kernel panic is still in 10.5.5
2008-09-15 15:38 <RazvanM> I'll be back
2008-09-15 15:39 <RazvanM> (with the answer about mode_t :D)
2008-09-15 15:39 <flips> tux3 doesn't have a mode_t
2008-09-15 15:40 <flips> it uses the libc mode_t
2008-09-15 15:40 <flips> man 2 stat
2008-09-15 15:41 <flips> oops he's gone
2008-09-15 15:41 <flips> understandably
2008-09-15 15:47 <shapor> i don't like the fact hg is python
2008-09-15 15:48 <flips> I don't care much
2008-09-15 15:48 <flips> I don't like the fact that guido doesn't support native code gen for python
2008-09-15 15:48 <flips> iow, guido is more of a problem than matt
2008-09-15 16:04 -!- RazvanM(~RazvanM@dazzler.isi.jhu.edu) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 16:05 <flips> wb
2008-09-15 16:05 <RazvanM> damn... they didn't fix my kernel panic :(
2008-09-15 16:05 <flips> my robots.txt fu is insufficient
2008-09-15 16:05 <flips> help me ;)
2008-09-15 16:05 <flips> who didn't?
2008-09-15 16:05 <RazvanM> apple :P
2008-09-15 16:06 <RazvanM> they just released 10.5.5
2008-09-15 16:06 <flips> how yahoobot it beating me up
2008-09-15 16:06 <flips> now
2008-09-15 16:06 <flips> ah
2008-09-15 16:06 <flips> linux seldom panics
2008-09-15 16:06 <flips> maybe apple will see the light
2008-09-15 16:06 <RazvanM> about the mote_t: ./stdlib.h:typedef      __darwin_mode_t mode_t;
2008-09-15 16:07 <RazvanM> in my case it panics with a one line C program :P
2008-09-15 16:07 <flips> so...
2008-09-15 16:07 <flips> in exaclty what way is it incompatible?
2008-09-15 16:08 <RazvanM> tux3 was also typedef-ing mode_t I think...
2008-09-15 16:08 <RazvanM> perhaps it doesn't anymore :D
2008-09-15 16:10 <RazvanM> it does not from what I see...
2008-09-15 16:12 <RazvanM> I need to go back on some graphs for a paper. I'll try to make an attempt to get tux3 to compile on mac later tonight.
2008-09-15 16:17 <flips> cu
2008-09-15 16:17 <flips> tux3 u tomorrow ;)
2008-09-15 16:18 -!- shapor(~shapor@yzf.shapor.com) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 16:19 <flips> typedef __uint16_t __darwin_mode_t;
2008-09-15 16:19 <flips> lamerz
2008-09-15 16:22 <flips> robots.txt standard is really lame
2008-09-15 16:22 <flips> only works in the root of the server
2008-09-15 16:22 <flips> "standard" :p
2008-09-15 16:23 <konrad> yep
2008-09-15 16:23 <flips> tux3 uses mode_t in just one place: fuse
2008-09-15 16:23 <konrad> does fuse work on mac?
2008-09-15 16:23 <flips> so send your complaint to our fuser department ;)
2008-09-15 16:23 <flips> I wonder
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> would be weird hmm?
2008-09-15 16:24 <konrad> mhm
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> but fuse won't compile by default
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> the pkg-config will just not fire
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> I think
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> ifeq ($(shell pkg-config fuse && echo found), found)
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> 	binaries += tux3fs tux3fuse
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> endif
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> right
2008-09-15 16:24 <flips> so if there's a mode_t problem, it's not in the tux3 source
2008-09-15 16:25 <flips> nice piece of make scripting by the way
2008-09-15 16:25 <flips> who did that again?
2008-09-15 16:25 <flips> RazvanM maybe
2008-09-15 16:37 <flips> moonbase:/var/www# cat robots.txt
2008-09-15 16:37 <flips> User-agent: *
2008-09-15 16:37 <flips> Disallow: /
2008-09-15 16:38 <flips> I'll refine that later
2008-09-15 16:38 <flips> needless to say, googlebot is still bothering me
2008-09-15 16:38 <pgquiles_> flips: you know robots.txt does not work for rogue bots, do you?
2008-09-15 16:39 <flips> "don't take no for an answer" -- googlebot
2008-09-15 16:39 <flips> pgquiles, if I see a rogue bot I know what to do
2008-09-15 16:39 <flips> I can say that googlebot is very impolite
2008-09-15 16:39 <pgquiles_> :-)
2008-09-15 16:39 <flips> has no concept of staying within a reasonable share of bandwidth
2008-09-15 16:40 <flips> obviously, googlebot is coded and maintained by "smart people" ;)
2008-09-15 16:40 <pgquiles_> :-D
2008-09-15 16:48 <flips> oh, msnbot has joined the party
2008-09-15 16:48 <flips> everybody knows where there's a good party it seems
2008-09-15 16:49 <flips> now, I want to explain to them: crawl my site, just don't index every version of linus's git tree
2008-09-15 16:49 <flips> please
2008-09-15 16:57 <konrad> tell someone at google about git
2008-09-15 17:01 <shapor> flips: with a robots.txt like that it is likely you won't show up in search results
2008-09-15 17:02 <flips> I know
2008-09-15 17:02 <flips> I needed some peace
2008-09-15 17:02 <flips> while I write the real file
2008-09-15 17:02 <shapor> Disallow: /ddtree didn't work ?
2008-09-15 17:02 <shapor> i guess you dont really care about phunq.net anyway
2008-09-15 17:02 <flips> let's try it
2008-09-15 17:03 <shapor> from my access logs it looks like most bots only grab robots.txt before a scan
2008-09-15 17:03 <shapor> not before earch request
2008-09-15 17:03 <shapor> so if they have already started crawling it might just keep continuing
2008-09-15 17:03 <shapor> i dunno
2008-09-15 17:04 <flips> I know
2008-09-15 17:04 <flips> that's impolite
2008-09-15 17:04 <shapor> also for your disallow i think you need to give full paths
2008-09-15 17:04 <shapor> so
2008-09-15 17:04 <shapor> Disallow: fifo.c
2008-09-15 17:04 <flips> specially for one like googlebot with zigabucks spent on it
2008-09-15 17:04 <shapor> won't do anything
2008-09-15 17:04 <flips> true
2008-09-15 17:04 <flips> and it has to be in the root
2008-09-15 17:04 <flips> all of which is work
2008-09-15 17:04 <shapor> if you run apache you could add a disallow for googlebot in the .htaccess
2008-09-15 17:04 <flips> which isn't pleasant when my system is getting hammered
2008-09-15 17:04 <shapor> based on user agent
2008-09-15 17:05 <flips> does it work for nonhtml files?
2008-09-15 17:05 <flips> I guess
2008-09-15 17:05 <shapor> yes
2008-09-15 17:05 <flips> but you have to name the bot
2008-09-15 17:05 <flips> right?
2008-09-15 17:05 <shapor> yeah
2008-09-15 17:05 <flips> funny how these standards don't get improved
2008-09-15 17:05 <shapor> intrenched
2008-09-15 17:05 <shapor> hard to change
2008-09-15 17:06 <flips> also no interest from goog in making it easy to exclude the bot, it's all or nothing, or pain
2008-09-15 17:06 <konrad> just look for +http:// in the user agent
2008-09-15 17:06 <flips> same with the others of course
2008-09-15 17:06 <shapor> i mean cmon we use http + javascript for "pushing" data to a browser
2008-09-15 17:06 <konrad> semi-polite bots all have that
2008-09-15 17:06 <shapor> whcih is just a polling pull loop
2008-09-15 17:06 <shapor> its all crap
2008-09-15 17:07 <flips> but xml makes it better ;)
2008-09-15 17:07 <shapor> 
ACTION pukes a little in his mouth

2008-09-15 17:07 <pgquiles_> flips: .htpasswd?
2008-09-15 17:07 <flips> for the moment no robot's are hitting me
2008-09-15 17:07 <flips> pgquiles_, but the site needs to be public
2008-09-15 17:08 <flips> moonbase:/var/www# cat robots.txt
2008-09-15 17:08 <flips> User-agent: *
2008-09-15 17:08 <flips> Disallow: /ddtree
2008-09-15 17:08 <flips> ok?
2008-09-15 17:08 <shapor> seems reasonable
2008-09-15 17:09 <flips> I think the bots are staying away until their next sniff cycle
2008-09-15 17:09 <shapor> http://www.whitehouse.gov/robots.txt
2008-09-15 17:09 <flips> because of the /
2008-09-15 17:09 <shapor> interesting
2008-09-15 17:09 <flips> from before
2008-09-15 17:09 <shapor> thats the first result for robots.txt disallow on google
2008-09-15 17:10 <flips> that's the one site that should be completely indexed
2008-09-15 17:10 <flips> without option
2008-09-15 17:10 <shapor> heh
2008-09-15 17:10 <shapor> the only url it is pulling is /ddtree
2008-09-15 17:10 <flips> User-agent:	whsearch
2008-09-15 17:10 <shapor> everything else are just paremeters being passed to it
2008-09-15 17:11 <shapor> so i think /ddtree is sufficient
2008-09-15 17:11 <flips> can search an extra dozen things
2008-09-15 17:11 <flips> ok
2008-09-15 17:11 <flips> later I will refine that
2008-09-15 17:11 <flips> so it allows searching the tux3 part of ddtree
2008-09-15 17:11 <flips> and only that
2008-09-15 17:27 <flips> it's time to do extents
2008-09-15 17:27 <flips> never mind I claimed I'd do versioning next on lkml
2008-09-15 17:27 <flips> extends = benchmarkability
2008-09-15 17:27 <flips> easy
2008-09-15 17:28 <flips> and that big zfs bully won't kick sand in the face of skinny little tux3 any more
2008-09-15 17:28 <flips> tux3 will learn ju-extent-fu
2008-09-15 17:29 <flips> well where do we start
2008-09-15 17:29 <flips> the hardest part is actually versioned extents, so it's convenient that's the part getting deferred
2008-09-15 17:29 -!- pgquiles__(~pgquiles@50.Red-79-153-248.staticIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #tux3
2008-09-15 17:30 <flips> we need to be able to alloc an extent for one thing
2008-09-15 17:30 <flips> so the bitmap scanning gets fancier
2008-09-15 17:30 <flips> not just searching for a bit any more, but a contiguous run of bits
2008-09-15 17:30 <flips> and sometimes it might be best for it to say: here's the longest run I found in that region
2008-09-15 17:31 <flips> instead of just failing because it didn't find the length asked
2008-09-15 17:31 <flips> gets into heuristics
2008-09-15 17:31 <flips> then what else
2008-09-15 17:32 <flips> extents only appear in dleaf
2008-09-15 17:32 <flips> so...
2008-09-15 17:32 <flips> caller of deaf methods has impact
2008-09-15 17:32 <flips> those are in btree.c and inode.c
2008-09-15 17:32 <flips> I wonder if there is any btree.c impact
2008-09-15 17:32 <flips> there should not be
2008-09-15 17:33 <flips> actually, btree.c never even knows its calling dleaf methods
2008-09-15 17:33 <flips> so I guess the entire impact is in inode.c
2008-09-15 17:33 <flips> maybe
2008-09-15 17:33 <flips> and balloc.c
2008-09-15 17:33 <flips> big and
2008-09-15 17:34 <shapor> yeah, so that makes them easy right? :P
2008-09-15 17:34 <flips> relatively
2008-09-15 17:34 <flips> compard to versioned extents
2008-09-15 17:34 <shapor> should just make them versioned to begin with 
2008-09-15 17:34 <flips> but still one of the messier bits so far
2008-09-15 17:34 <flips> my head hurts just thinking about it
2008-09-15 17:34 <flips> defer
2008-09-15 17:34 <shapor> haha
2008-09-15 17:34 <flips> gain experience
2008-09-15 17:34 <flips> with the simpler case
2008-09-15 17:34 <shapor> that is like, at the core of tux3 though
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> oh yeah
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> heart and soul
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> but winning benchmarks is too
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> and I can smell blood ;)
2008-09-15 17:35 <shapor> without versioning, boo
2008-09-15 17:35 <shapor> :P
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> doesn't bother me
2008-09-15 17:35 <shapor> yeah
2008-09-15 17:35 <shapor> walk first
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> if versioning arrives a month later
2008-09-15 17:35 <shapor> run later
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> then jump
2008-09-15 17:35 <flips> then arabesque
2008-09-15 17:35 <shapor> teleport
2008-09-15 17:36 <flips> right
2008-09-15 17:36 <shapor> then stretch space and time so travel isn't necessary anymore
2008-09-15 17:36 <flips> that's called multicore
2008-09-15 17:36 <shapor> heh
2008-09-15 17:36 <flips> or is it qubits?
2008-09-15 17:36 <flips> bubytes would rule
2008-09-15 17:36 <shapor> drugs i think
2008-09-15 17:36 <flips> qubytes
2008-09-15 17:37 <flips> that too
2008-09-15 17:37 <flips> just imagine the great hack
2008-09-15 17:37 <flips> "in xanadu did kubla geek a stately filesystem arch decree"
2008-09-15 17:38 <flips> -- anon
2008-09-15 17:42 <flips> ok, I"m going to get another eee
2008-09-15 17:42 <flips> seems one isn't enough
2008-09-15 17:42 <shapor> wow your original tux3 announcement is still in the hottest threads on lkml
2008-09-15 17:42 <flips> the wife likes it ;)
2008-09-15 17:42 <flips> so it is, pushed down a little by the time travel
2008-09-15 17:43 <flips> probably a plot by linus to get his spot back
2008-09-15 17:43 <flips> and who is frans pop, is that a real name? ;) <- jk
2008-09-15 17:44 <flips> wow, what next is in the top
2008-09-15 17:44 <flips> right after -rc6 and time travel
2008-09-15 17:46 <flips> getting close to sk8 oclock
2008-09-15 17:53 <flips> 
ACTION flips_rollin

2008-09-15 19:43 <bh> flips: http://milek.blogspot.com/2008/03/zfs-de-duplication.html
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2008-09-15 20:06 -!- ChanServ changed mode/#tux3 -> -o hirofumi
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2008-09-15 21:04 <bh> back
2008-09-15 21:04 <bh> that was a bit wierd
2008-09-15 21:07 <bh> flips: what do you think about the link ?
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2008-09-15 23:49 <bh> flips: you there ?